Alarm to control two independent groups (areas)

[brano1990]

I would like to activate alarm for separate areas, par exemple only for garage, but at the same time not for house.

I need the one activation code for garage and the other one for house.

group alarms

[akasma74]

I take it's a Feature Request.

I know people refer to commercial alarms that support areas/groups etc.
Your description is a bit unclear - do you mean you want to be able to use one alarm component (this one) to look after several independent sets of sensors (areas) with their separate configs etc?

[brano1990]

yes, like you writing

"I want two separate alarm codes for two separate areas. One activate alarm code for garage and the other code for house. "

or is it possible to use two alarm_control_panel.house?
One to the garage "alarm_control_panel.house1" and the other one to the house "alarm_control_panel.house2".
Is it possible to set up these two panels separatly?

[akasma74]

or is it possible to use two alarm_control_panel.house?

I haven't tried yet but I have a feeing that it's not possible out of the box.
Will have a look and post an update.

[akasma74]

Upon looking at the code I can confirm that currently it's not possible to have more than one alarm at a time.
It's not that it's impossibe to change how things work but it'll definitely require plenty of work/testing so I'll leave it as a FR for now.

[akasma74]

Actually, could you explain me how would you ideally want the alarm to work in your case?
And how would you configure it?
It's up to you if two separate alarms is more convenient than ome with areas.
I just want to get an idea how it could be used/configured to fulfill your needs.
So you're not limited by how it's currently configured, just imagine what would suit you best.

[sparkydave1981]

As a previous commercial alarm installer I just thought I'd put a note about naming conventions. What you are explaining to is as stated above referred to as "areas". What might not sound right for some, but is the correct general practice is to call each input to an alarm system a 'zone' (it becomes more evident why when you think of a motion sensor in a building which protects a certain "zone"). This component calls them 'sensors' and that's fine for our HA world in my opinion. I just wanted to try and push for this idea of separate sections of a house being armed independently to be called "areas" Hopefully you are on board 😀 I like the ideas of having areas, pretty sure I asked for it a long time ago on the forum

[akasma74]

@sparkydave1981 thanks, I appreciate your input.
Could you explain how it works when you arm independent areas?
Is it like you choose what areas to arm?
Do they all have their own settings?
I'm interested in practical side of things as it dictates how to implement that idea.

[sparkydave1981]

The areas can be armed and disarmed independently as of they were two (or more) seperate alarm systems. Zones (inputs) can be in either or both. Entry and exit time delays can be set individually also.

[brano1990]

I need something like night mode to be independently controlled
variant a):

• two alarm panels: one for the garage and the other for the house

variant b):

• there would be more groups in one panel, see the picture
• groups 1 and 2 could be switched in panels

(setting what you have is great)

[akasma74]

@sparkydave1981 I take it that zones are just groups of sensors, and currently we can say that every sensor represents its own zone.
Zones can be configured so alarm panel reacts differently if a zone is activated depending on arm mode - for example, it will trigger alarm in Away mode but switch on a light in Home mode (I'm talking about hardware security alarms here).

Not sure that in case of this component we need an exact copy of all that, mainly because a lot of things can be done using HA automations and without integrating logic into the component (or are there other reasons to do so?)

Speaking about areas - how are they controlled in commercial alarms? Do they arm them separately? What happens if a zone that an area is configured with is being activated?

So far I have a feeling that it's more convenient to support several separate alarms with appropriate alarm cards and settings. It depends on use case but I think it's a bit limiting to have everything configured for 3 different modes (away/home/night) - or is it possible?

[sparkydave1981]

Zones are individual inputs, it's purely a naming convention.
I agree that any non-alarm logic (turning lights on etc) is not needed in the component as we can already do this in HA.
If a zone (input) is configured in multiple Areas then the alarm simply actions appropriately for each Area. That said, in commercial alarms you have have different results for what happens when the Area is triggered. ie: Area 1 when triggered sounds alarm and strobe, Area 2 might only be a silent alarm with strobe only (on phone notification), etc

I guess if we could somehow run multiple instances of this component with different names, that would create the same effect

[akasma74]

Well, I've just found this old discussion
I have a feeling that currently zone can combine several sensors - i.e a motion sensor and a contact sensor in one room - or you think it should be called an 'area'? ;)

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to deal with areas in case of this component.
Currently we can say that every sensor is a zone and they all form an area.
When that area is activated (triggered?), it results in the alarm changing its state to warning/triggered depending on the group an active zone is in (delayed/immediate).

All reactions to that state change are located outside HA - you have to have an automation that turns on a siren if alarm's state changes to triggered, for example.
Do we need to change it somehow to accomodate diferent areas or it can remain the same?

I take it that in commercial alarms the reaction to the area being triggered depends on the mode (away/home/night) and some area-specific settings, is that correct? If so, what settings could it be?

By having multiple instances you want to arm different areas separately, is that what you mean?

UPDATE: reading this website and it makes things a bit more clear - each sensor/zone need to be configured and that will impact the way it's treated when activated.

Any thoughts what would be reasonable to implement in this component as we have a different approach (all sensors are configured by putting them in immediate/delayed group)?

Looks like areas how we call them here have a standard name - partitions.

[Extreme79]

This is what I need to abandon my zipabox to start home assistant adventure.
Virtual alarm able to create more than one indipendent partition (example floor1 and floor2, where a zone/sensor could be used in both partition or not).

[lojzo2000]

all sensors are configured by putting them in immediate/delayed group - Yes

All reactions to that state change are located outside HA - you have to have an automation that turns on a siren if alarm's state changes to triggered, for example.
Do we need to change it somehow to accomodate diferent areas or it can remain the same? - Just one trigger

One area one alarm

second area types alarm

[hellymellywell]

Hello,

For me, it will be great if we can install 2 alarm panels, then I will have an alarm for the house, and another for the garage (independent building).
My home and garage sensors are all included in the same HA.
Having to independent alarms panels, will give me the possibility to give the garage code to some people, but not the house code.

Thank you for your support!

[brano1990]

Hello,

For me, it will be great if we can install 2 alarm panels, then I will have an alarm for the house, and another for the garage (independent building).
My home and garage sensors are all included in the same HA.
Having to independent alarms panels, will give me the possibility to give the garage code to some people, but not the house code.

Thank you for your support!

hey hey this i suggested would be great

[akasma74]

@brano1990 I believe you closed it by mistake, did you?

[brano1990]

yes sorry

[Extreme79]

I hope @akasma74 will find the time to implement that enhancement, will be great :)
I see a little bit of confusion with definitions, but probably it's due to our different world location.
Generally I know that alarm systems call "zones" the single input sensors (window sensor is a zone, door sensor is another zone..), that can be "defined" in many ways (as standard zone, as entry zone, as exit zone, as trailing zone, as "coupled" zone with another zone to avoid false alarms..) and configured to be in a specific state to be armed (so it trigger in the opposite state and need a bypass to arm if not in the correct state).
All the Zones (for us, the all the input sensors) are grouped in indipendent Partitions (called here also areas?) that can be configured and controlled indipendently, everyone with their users (each with their pin), all under the same "alarm system" instance, with an alarm panel for each partition.

Example, every zone can be included in more partitions with different configuration:

• Partition 1 include the Zone A that can be configured to arm when closed and can't be bypassed - so it trigger only when the state change from close to open.
• Partition 2 include the same Zone A, but configured to let the zone to arm in any state - so it trigger the partition at every state change, open to close or close to open.
  And so on..

I hope this clarify a little bit more instead confusing more :) :)

[akasma74]

@Extreme79 thanks for your input.

I see a little bit of confusion with definitions, but probably it's due to our different world location.

That's basically because I'm not an expert in hardware alarm systems where all these definitions stem from. What I do is asking more knowlegeable members of the community or studying some commercial alarms providers' websites for definitions/use cases.

The beauty of this alarm is it's reasonably easy to configure and it does the job for a lot of home users.

What we are talking about here is something that is not often needed. So I want to find out if it's possible to add these features without making the configuration/use of it much more complicated.

For example, currently to add zones one just select them and (optionally) defines some custom on/off states.
To support that added features, every zone should have a "type" (standard, entry, exit, coupled etc), arming state, opposite state, bypass flag etc. And of course, it should be taken into account when processing events (bypass flag affects arming, opposite state affects triggering, is that correct?).

It's also not clear yet to me when you say

All the Zones (for us, the all the input sensors) are grouped in indipendent Partitions (called here also areas?) that can be configured and controlled indipendently

what king of configuration could it be?

everyone with their users (each with their pin)

do you mean every partition has its own list of users so they act as separate alarms?

Also, could you explain me the reason behind your example as I don't quite understand.

[Extreme79]

The beauty of this alarm is it's reasonably easy to configure and it does the job for a lot of home users.

Sure, basic system does thejob for a lot of people, no dubt.

What we are talking about here is something that is not often needed. So I want to find out if it's possible to add these features without making the configuration/use of it much more complicated.

This is true, but I generally prefer an approach of balance between simplicity and features. Ok a simple enviroment, but if "we" search for a virtual alarm system, some of the "advanced" features of a real alarm could be important (or near to be mandatory).

For example, currently to add zones one just select them and (optionally) defines some custom on/off states.
To support that added features, every zone should have a "type" (standard, entry, exit, coupled etc), arming state, opposite state, bypass flag etc. And of course, it should be taken into account when processing events (bypass flag affects arming, opposite state affects triggering, is that correct?).

On a real alarm system, that features are often used. One example: if you have a keypad inside the home near the main door to arm/disrm alarm.. you can configure the main door as entry and exit zone, so entering the home you have the time to deactivate the alarm before it trigger, and exiting the home you can arm the alarm from keypad having the time to exit without triggering it.
Another feature (this is, example, mandatory for me): during the summer I close the external shutters (also protected and configured in the partition) leaving the windows opened, then I "arm home" the partition (so only perimeter zones can trigger)
bypassing the opened windows. During the night I can close the windows without disarming the alarm, because I configured each window zone to be in closed state to arm (so trigger happen only when turn from close to open).. so I have to bypass an opened window to arm but later I can close the window (the bypassed state of the zone is cancelled) without disarm and without triggering the alarm.

It's also not clear yet to me when you say

All the Zones (for us, the all the input sensors) are grouped in indipendent Partitions (called here also areas?) that can be configured and controlled indipendently
what king of configuration could it be?

think about a villa enviroment where two families stay in two flats with many common areas (in my case I live in the bottom floor with my family, my parents live in the upper floor), an ex-woodworking adiacent building, a garden, the car parking. All under a single automation system (now zipato zipabox, but when I'll find the time I'll migrate to HA.. but before I have to replicate the zipato virtual alarm :) )
I have a Partition "My Floor" with all the zone/sensors of my floor, another partition "Parents Floor" with all the sensors of my parent's floor, another partition "Woodworking area" with all the relatives zones. Each partition can indipendently armed/armed home/disarmed.
I can operate my partition, my parents operate their partition, both of us can arm/disarm the woodworking area (and I can temporary add my parents users to my partition during holidays, example).

everyone with their users (each with their pin)
do you mean every partition has its own list of users so they act as separate alarms?

Yes, or near that. In fact, in my case, the alarm users are the users configured in the zipato system with access to the app. But don't mind about my actual system.
An user list in every partition, with their pin, let "admin" to assign a special pin to - example - baby sitter, and this let you to know that the user baby sitter disarmed the alarm at certain time (and this open to the possibility to have a time-limited pin, so the babysitter can disarm only between 11am and 5pm).
At the same time, with the multi-user approach, I can define the user babysitter valid in my partition but not in my parents partition.

Also, could you explain me the reason behind your example as I don't quite understand.

I hope I was able to clarify something a little bit, despite my poor english :)
Feel free to ask. I'll try to explain better :)