Replies: 63 comments 90 replies
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This is ongoing other task. So it's a duplicate
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Number 3 I don't understand. How can we prevent accidental map rotation if we do not have a threshold? Please note the threshold is only to activate the map rotation, not to limit the rotation itself. (I.e. turning 30 degrees clockwise then without interruption 27 degrees back does of course work.) |
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... and what's happened to the two finger map tilt? |
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It has become even harder to activate. |
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Simple: The rotation mode switching button is there to pick between no rotation and zero threshold rotation. The threshold is an “automagic” hack, that, like everything “automagic”, is a bad idea. Don’t put two functionalities in one thing. Let alone invisibly. The button is perfectly fine for letting the user choose himself. Don’t try to guess what the user wants. You will always just end up picking the dumbest common denominator, which makes everyone unhappy, because everyone differs from it somewhere. Letting the user choose makes it possible to actually make everyone happy. And it saves you from coming up with hackish “smart” algorithms that never work quite right and waste the majority of programming time for no benefit. :) |
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It can die in peace. XD |
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OsmAnd~ 4.4.0#14261mqta, Released: 2023-03-23 telegram-cloud-document-2-5251725772908929754.mp4 |
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I guess if we don't like the dead zone of having to twist at least 30 degrees to change the map from "North is up" to "Manual rotation" (immediately after that you can rotate to anything), maybe we should disable twisting entirely in the "North is up" mode. That would result in users who need the comparatively rarely used "Manual rotation" mode would have to explicitly tap the compass icon or use the settings to explicitly switch to manual rotation.... and it would protect the vast majority of users who need "North is up" and no accidental switching... |
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Yeah I would like to have twisting disabled entirely when North is up. I’ve always thought that the North is up is “North is up always” until I manually disabled it. Maybe it could be an option in settings that twisting would be disabled entirely when north is up is locked in settings. |
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In the 4.5.8 version is almost completely solved. I say "almost" because it still happens that the map is rotated unintentionally :( We are grateful for all the improvements in the new version and the partial resolution of this problem that those of us who make intensive use of osmand in the mountains have been suffering for 6 long months, but I still find it inexplicable how it was not solved by putting a "North up fixed" option (real). I (and half of humanity), don't want the map to be rotated NEVER. As well as being an orientation hazard, it's a nuisance to have to notice that the compass has appeared and you have to touch it to restore north. Anyway, at least after these 6 long months it's much better, so thanks (sincere) to those who have partially solved it:) |
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There was a change in the last days. |
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I think it started by trying to have pinch zoom and rotating the map combined into one single gesture. But does anybody have a use case to perform these two rather different things in one go? Not me... |
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Could you please provide details about confusing changes? |
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Yes humans with fingers. |
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No, because this is not a knob. This is a map. It contains semantic structures that the brain has trouble recognizing after rotation. (E.g. streets, buildings, …) Nobody complained that this was something they were missing in the app. Certainly not anybody who thought about it beyond “It’s what I’m used to, so I want to keep it”. |
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For me it is irritating if I only want to make a pinch zoom (and nothing else), when the map rotates accidentally and I have to reset the direction each time. |
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This is particularly awkward when on the hills and it is cold/wet. Perhaps it is different for some, but I hold the "map" in my head as north up – as with traditional paper maps – and navigate (in my head) from that. I absolutely don't want the map rotating, ever. A side benefit of this is that the compass need no longer be displayed, because north is always up. |
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It’s also super-annoying on phones with imprecise (e.g. old or cheap) touch screens. Plus, it re-renders things each time it rotates. Which makes input sluggish. And then you have to re-adjust your mind to find where everything is, tap the “north is up” again, are completely lost on where you used to be on the map, try to zoom again, and the whole nightmare starts again! Add to that the big joy of touch screens thinking you tapped instead of pinching, because we put a dozen different functions into a single input system and some stupid algorithm has to make wild guesses if electrostatic charge level 0.005739 means “still touching” or “lifted and this in a new touch”, and OSMand’s UI popping up random UI panels that completely throw off your position, and you got a tool that could be used for literal torture. |
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See also #16805 |
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@dmpr0 Yeah 😉 , but I thnk in the vast majority of everyday map use users want to either zoom or rotate, but not both in one go? If you don't like the 30 degrees threshold solution (we had it for almost 10 years!) to trigger "Manual rotation" mode, an alternative is
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I agree strongly with you @sonora - "North ALWAYS up (fixed)" is exactly what most folk appear to expect by the looks of the multiple issues posted relating to this. Yes, "fixed" should be just that - "fixed", and if in the rare occasion someone wants "rotated", then an icon tap should suffice to execute it. |
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Where are from you get statistic? |
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Not the OP, but I suspect need is context-driven. For example, hill-walkers will almost always want "north is up", while folk – including myself – wandering round an unfamiliar city will often want to orient the map to their direction. Other use-cases will have similar biases. Thus, I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all solution to this. |
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Nobody claimed it to be a statistic in the first place. And since you didn’t offer a statistic for your position either, they don’t need to either. I don’t understand why you’re so defensive about it. Especially when you got such an amazing configuration UI that would easily allow you to just add a setting to have it your way or our way. Then people can choose. (Frankly, that’s what I expected to find at the bottom of the original closed bug.) … We love your software. This bit super-annoys us. If you care about us liking and using your software, you can add such a switch, and we will tell everyone your software is great. If you don’t (which is your good right!, as you’re the one doing the work), and just want to make this for yourself, then why even bother with the discussion? We can always fork it if we want. ^^ |
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As of 27.03 Current build has designed behavior for all tested behaviors. Last glitch needs to be reviewed
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We need to stick to the main concept that fingers are linked to the map location, so you always should be able to rotate and zoom in cause your fingers will move around the map. It's a physical paradigm like working with gypsum (sculpture) |
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One word: Skeuomorphism. (Aka the thing we don’t do anymore because it is a bad idea.) All we want, is to move the map closer and further away without losing our bearing and having to reset it to north. |
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Just downloaded OsmAnd+ 4.5.0 (Beta). |
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Aha, feeling good again! |
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AndroVid_8155.mp4Showing "excessive" finger movements whilst remaining in North up, fixed. |
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which version? clearly not current 4.5.3? |
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clearly not 4.5.3, as it was posted 12 May 2023, so assuming previous comments I'd guess one of 4.5.0 betas |
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I'd also prefer a North is up fixed (only) option. I'd just mentioned the version I'm currently on is much improved on how it's been recently. @albansuser - is your option in Settings / OsmAnd settings / Map rendering = version 2 not working for two finger tilt? |
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That is correct. If I remember correctly, it hasn't been working since around the time the rotating fixed north feature/debate began. Tilt doesn't work with 2.5D nor 3D. I find the default, now fixed, tilt too steep. |
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Two-finger tilt is still possible but has become even harder to activate (version 4.5.0 here). It was already buggy before (#14942) but now it is almost impossible to activate it. |
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Thanks. I tried again to get it to work. No joy. I think a menu option or widget to change tilt would be a reliable solution and avoid using cluttered gestures. |
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You're right ... it is more difficult to tilt. |
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sorry, but with 4.5.0 the map north orientation is still not fixed (in the sense of : fixed) the map still accidentially rotates when zooming with 2 fingers. PLEASE offer a fixed north again! thanks! |
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When you say "again", do you imply that it ever behaved that way (i.e. that in some version is was impossible to use any gesture, regardless of its sensitivity, to make it rotate)? If so, in which version? |
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No, for ten or so yesrs we had always had the 30 degree twist threshold to initiate a manual rotation from the "North is up" mode. That's the behavior my pull request #17197 would reinstate. In 4.4 or so we had a naming change adding the word "(fixed)" to the "North is up" and "Manually rotated" modes, but that was merely meant as a wording clarification to distinguish the 2 static modes from the 2 dynamic modes where map orientation automatically changes in accordance with movement or the device compass orientation. |
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In #16893 is a clear pledge I like to repeat here: Expected result As I remember over the last 10 years of osmand, "fixed north" meant just this. I may choose "rotate manually" in each profile I like, but it should be possible to just switch it off again. Currently I run 4.5.3, in the fixed issues list again "fixed north" turns up, but map rotation is still unstable / unusable. |
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In addition to human "errors" when zooming in non-robotically, there is another problem: when it rains and a few drops fall on the screen in the middle of a mountain, the map is much more easily rotated by mistake, by considering additional "touches" when zooming in or touching anything. We want a fixed north option, with no possibility of rotation in any way. There are many people who will never rotate the map, because we have been visualizing the three-dimensionality of the mountains for years by seeing them facing north, without changing the orientation. |
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Well, I can only judge by looking for what was reported. It was not being complained about in 4.3.x and below, and there was outburst of several issues with 4.4.x appearing. That being said, 4.3.x behaviour was ideal for me (and probably good enough for you if it happened so rarely?). And users were using for many years without anyone complaining, so I'd say it was good enough (if perhaps not perfect) solution. While I definitely want "North is up" not to trigger by accident, I also want to be easily be able to change it (as I do all the time - switching from North_is_up to Manually_rotated and back to North_is_up) - see this comment #17197 (comment). Thus, how it was done all those previous years (i.e. in 4.3.x an below, or PR #17197) would be quite good solution for me. On the other hand, having to go somewhere in preferences every few minutes to disable/enable lock would be horrible user experience for my use case (even if it might be perfectly fine with your use case). Such a "cure" would be even worse than "4.4.x illness" for me.
Ah, then it seems we don't want the same thing afterall. I do want to be able to easily change from "North is up" to "manually rotated"; I just don't want to be happening all the time by accident (as it started happening with 4.4.x). |
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Yes, that would work for me too. Now "all that remains" 🥲 is to convince powers-that-be to implement both 4.3.x thresholds in North-is-up mode (code already exists in PR #17197) and to add "Disable manual rotation" option somewhere in preferences. |
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+1 I was baffled to find that no such lock option exists after frantically sifting through the menus. |
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As a new user, who had only recently started to use OsmAnd, I quickly discovered how easy it was to rotate away from "North is up", it annoyed me (I am in that camp of users 😀 ). I wondered if by changing the Configure Screen setting to not show the compass it might "lock" the map orientation (since if you can't see the compass you can't change mode and orientation can't be displayed, so is unknown if it changes). My theory didn't work, but maybe the logic is sound? When the user selects "North is up" orientation and sets the compass icon to always hidden the user requires unambiguous always north at the top. If the compass is shown you are either a novice or haven't made up your mind what orientation you need from time-to-time. When the compass is hidden no mode change should occur.... Does that logic have any value? Perhaps more of a complication to describe in the documentation, but "north is up" users should be content to set what they want and discover from the documentation how to keep it that way. Either that or an additional mode which is "North is up (always). The current mode doesn't quite qualify for the word "fixed" because it isn't - it's sort of "sticky" |
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I want to see in which mode I am, and be able to switch mode to compass before starting to drive again, but switch it to fixed north when stopping to explore the surroundings. So just having a damn actually fixed mode would be enough. |
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As an old user of Osmand+ application, change of dead zone done in this year is very annying for me. I'm not very skilled with manual work and every zoom change causes a change of the north direction.. |
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Another problem I noticed, related to this, is that when it jumps out of the dead zone, you cannot put it back! So it doesn’t snap back. This is of course because then you could not rotate less than the dead zone. But ultimately, this is caused by trying to put a fixed mode and a rotation mode into one input functionality and have this silly hack to tell them apart. When the whole touchscreen tech is already nothing but silly telling-apart hacks. |
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(1) As someone with a fair bit on experience in psychology, let me tell you, that people can’t recognize maps (well) anymore when they are rotated. Try recognizing anything simple/abstract/unknown on an upside-down picture. You can do it, but you have to re-adjust each time you rotate it, and it’s harder for quite some time. And when you then rotate it back, it’s hard there too, because you adjusted to the other one. Human recognition is not made to deal with rotational symmetry. … Hell, people have trouble even recognizing the same street if it’s night and they have only seen it during daylight! … (2) The whole point of “north is up (fixed)” is that it is fixed. If it isn’t, it’s the same thing as “manual rotation” that just happens to be rotated so that north is up. Making it pointless duplicate functionality. (2b) Also, Google and Apple doing things a certain way is absolutely never a reason to do it like that too. Not only because “ad populum” is such an obvious fallacy that children learn about it in elementary school, but also because Google, and even more so, Apple, are well know for favoring the dumbest common denominator and discriminating against everyone with more than half a brain, to a point where they are literally partially responsible for people becoming dumber. (Which they then believe to be a valid reason to make things even dumber, resulting in a downwards spiral. Yay!) So my proposal is:(I don’t know the English terms, and am translating back from German here) “North is up (fixed)” → “Fixed (North is up)” # Never ever rotates. Ever. Anyone in favor, drop a 👍. Anyone against, drop a comment on what can be improved. @Developers: I hope this puts things back on a constructive track, and useful to you. ¹ Emergence is the amount of functionality you get per element. Usually via a high amount of combinability. … E.g. Lego (80s Lego that is) and Minecraft are highly emergent games. Unix with its ”everything is a file” and ”tools that do one job and do it well”, is too. Computers in general, are. … Call of Duty isn’t. And most mobile apps as well as the “smartphones” they run on, aren’t either. |
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Yep. This: Fixed means fixed |
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Totally agree, please have it fixe(d) 🙂💚🌳
Op wo 13 sep. 2023 09:39 schreef Robin Bettridge ***@***.***>:
… Yep. This: Fixed means *fixed*
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oh, how much time has passed, but things are still there. |
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Yesterday I noticed the appearance of a new option.
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Thanks @Nine-Tailed. 👍 |
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The option appeared in the nightly build of the application, and will probably be included in the next release. |
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Many thanks 👌 I'll look out for it. |
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Yes, it is now available in the public version 4.7.10 (2024-04-18). Somewhat hard to find in the configuration options, but works as expected when activated.
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Found it thanks. |
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BTW… if that is an attempt at a German translation… 🤣 |
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"Norden immer oben" doesn't make the point, because the setting just applies to one particular mode and doesn't lock the display orientation generally. "Norden immer oben im 'Norden ist oben (fest)' Modus" would be precise, but that doesn't fit into the available space. I still believe (as German native speaker and long term OsmAnd user) that the current wording is the best option making the point within the available display space. |
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Agree that my wording is not exhaustive and with your further reasoning. |
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Fester 'Norden oben' Modus ? |
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Norden oben fixiert |
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That’s English grammar with German words again though. :D How about simply:
Or maybe, the more verbose:
Or, reversing, the switch:
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I'm just a user, but seeing I can now force North up and prevent all accidental rotations, I changed a really negative review to a 5-star one (I've been desperately looking for a map app without that twist gesture). In issue #17086 the final post says "there is a setting (until we have better solution for UI design) to have north fixed" - and this worries me. Please don't find a "better" solution, this is exactly what I needed, (especially in mid-winter when it's 20 below freezing and my hands are shaking). Okay, I'm totally fine with the toggle being placed somewhere else in the UI, but please don't remove the option or change it to a twist threshold. Please, please, please let this work as it works now - this is the best possible fix. |
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I think exactly the same: please, don't touch anything, it's near perfect like that (although many people will look for that fixed north option and won't find it, but well, playing with thresholds, gestures and human fingers again would be terrible). Please |
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I found the 'Fix North' and I am so happy with it. Thank you OsmAnd!
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I've just upgraded to v4.8.1.0 on iOS, but still can't find this. Has it been implemented on iOS? |
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https://osmand.net/docs/user/map/interact-with-map#map-orientation-modes While only for Android version. |
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Okay, thanks. Does anyone know if this is coming to iOS? |
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Yes, once we collect enough feedback for 4.8, it will be ported to iOS in 4.9 |
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4.9 has landed, and North is fixed \o/ Tears of joy being shed here 😂 Thank you. |
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and others
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I believe that changing the dead zone for initiating the manual map rotation from 30 deg to just 5 deg here #16746 increases the risk of accidentally changing to manual map rotation when just pinch-zooming. Manual rotation is actually a rather rare use case for the majority of users...
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